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Last night after work I went to the city with Murat. He dropped me off at the indoor climbing place in Etiler where I did some climbing by myself for about an hour. After that I met with Tahsin and we went to Tophane where we were to meet with Ant and some other people. For those of you that don’t know Tophane is a place by the sea with lots of nargile (hookah) cafes. It is famous for its nargile cafes. I end up there about once a week. I am sure there are other note worthy things about the area, but I haven’t discovered them yet.
The nargile cafes in Tophane are wonderful (sorry I don’t have pictures of them yet). You can sit either on bean bag chairs, or on benches. There is cafe after cafe next to each other in a line of about 100-150m. It is near the sea so there is always a nice breeze which carries the sweet smells of fruity sheesha (the tobacco in nargile) to the nearby street. As you approach Tophane, you can smell the nargile before you see it. My favorite part of Tophane is the many people that walk through the area selling all kinds of fun things to eat. Cold wet almonds, cherries, cookies, apricots, grapes, green plums, those weird pretzel bread things, tea and some things I haven’t eaten nor been able to identify yet, but they look good. Ant is a regular there, so since I am always with him, they recognize me as well, and I am therefore greeted very warmly.
The reason I am writing about Tophane was because of something very interesting I observed last night. While Tahsin and I were sitting waiting for the other three, a family of Dutch tourists came in. It was a father, his wife, and four children, the oldest being in high school. They were clearly trying to communicate with the servers there, whom do not speak English. Tahsin therefore volunteered to translate for them.
The question they had was whether or not it was ok for the women to sit there. This question seemed a bit strange, but then I realized, there were not any women sitting in the area we were sitting, a just question I thought. The answer was of course, it is no problem. So they took up a spot next to us. Ironically the father’s name was Conrad also (although spelled the Dutch way). I talked with them (mostly the father who was sitting next to me) and found them very nice.
Tahsin’s reaction was quite different. Tahsin seemed insulted and angered by their question. His reaction to the tourists asking if women were allowed to sit there was that these people were insensitive to Turkish culture. According to Tahsin, had they done some research before visiting Turkey, they would understand how secular the country is, and that there is no strict division between women and men as in other Muslim countries.
The read the book argument is a little exagerated. I am evidence that you cannot read about a country’s culture and understand yet. Culture is very complex and it takes years to fully understand a new culture. Furthermore, I don’t believe you can do it through books. You must live the culture to understand it. I assumed that this was simply Tahsin being a pessimist and seeing only the bad side of things.
In my mind, they were being very culturally sensitive. They are in a country that they do not know much about. What they do know is from the media which is biased in its coverage. Furthermore they had only been two days in Istanbul. So when arriving at Tophane, what is one to think when they are in a culture they do not know and suddenly they see no women. I think their question was warranted. Had they not asked and had they sat down without asking, they would have been accused of being culturally insensitive. It’s kind of a lose-lose situation.
I didn’t pay much heed to Tahsin’s comment until Ant and the others arrived. After telling them the story of these Dutch visitors Ant’s comment was “they think we are barbarians,” and the others seemed to agree. I was shocked. I thought they were being cultural sensitive, and I am sure they did too. Many of you would agree, wouldn’t you? Apparently there are some who find it to be just the opposite. Is the fact that these tourists did not understand Turkish culture before coming to Turkey is culturally insensitive in itself?
It is important to note at this point that the Turks are not Arabs. I am not sure everyone is aware of this. They are from a completely different genealogy and have a completely different language. They are from different parts of the world. The Arabs and the Turks simply share the same religion (the same goes for the Persians - Iran).
What do I make of all this? It seems the Turks defaulted to a defensive stance in this situation. I think everyone can agree that each side to this argument has a valid point and both sides are reasonable. So then it comes down to the difference between cultures. What does this incident say about Turkish culture?
I think it is indicative of the Turks being stuck between a rock and a hard place for a long time now. Since Turkey is a secular Muslim state, they aren’t very popular with their Arab neighbors, but since they are Muslim, they haven’t gotten along too well with Europe. People like Sarkozy in France, who had a campaign platform saying under his watch, Turkey would never join the EU, make Turkey feel rejected from the West. I am sure there is an eastern anti-Turkey counterpart, but I don’t know enough about the history and the politics to cite any names. Furthermore, allying itself with the US for so long has dragged Turkey’s popularity down as US popularity declines world wide. The divide between Turkey and the west has clearly led to a mutually lack of understanding. The rejection coupled with Turkey’s intense national pride may have turned them off to the rest of the world. Ant and Tahsin both saw this as a stealthy attack on their culture, would many other Turks have drawn the same conclusion? Would many other Turks agree with them? I don’t know.
I am now somewhat inspired to read deeper into Turkey’s history since the becoming a republic in 1923. They clearly don’t like being rejected, but I am curious how they have responded to others. There is the issue of the incident with the Armenians, but there is also the Ottoman acceptance of the Jews when they fled Spain. Is this a case of a self fulfilling prophecy or have the Turks simply been backed into a corner by the forces of global politics?
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July 17th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
perhaps you are hanging out with the wrong people
. i don’t think it is best to generalize turkish behavior and attitude by observing these guys and link it to the Armanian or EU incident whatsoever.. Anyway.. you will see more.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:18 pm
I think you have the right of it, Conrad. It was a lose/lose situation for the tourists, and likely the reason your friends felt so offended was, on some level, a recognition that in other places the question would be perfectly legitimate, and they don’t much like the other aspects of those places. Can you imagine, in America, if a Dutch tourist couple in Harlem asked if it was ok for white people to sit down and eat? Ok, poor parallel, but you get the idea. They were trying to be sensitive, and as a result, were insensitive. Its the kind of question one ought to ask a concierge at a hotel or something, where they are used to dealing with outsiders, rather than on the spot. /me shrug.
On a side note, enjoying reading your blog.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Which is more sad, the fact that Chris used an emote in a comment entry in a blog (play world of warcraft much?), or the fact that I don’t play those games but I still know what it is?
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Actually, I think Chris Martin hit the nail on the head with the Harlem example. Having spent time holding (rather heated) discussions involving racial and culture clashes with students in my ethics class, I am convinced that this was a lose/lose situation. It was also human nature - on both sides. When cultures collide, there is bound to be some wholly unintential misunderstandings. And no, reading a book would not help. I recall a student from Rumania who did research the USA before coming here, fully understood that there was a racial history at play in this country, but did not understand why calling his African-American male co-worker “boy” was a problem. The co-worker was merely younger than the Rumanian and in his understanding of English he should not call a younger male “man” or “sir”. Perhaps your open forum on this issue will help desensitize your friends in the future, but they are not to be denegrated for their defensiveness.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:05 pm
A what graham? I don’t see that. I like your comment btw Chris. It’s a really good example that helps me see the problem differently and I am sure helps other people think about it differently. However, in the situation you described, aren’t the African Americans you are talking about being cultural insensitive towards the Dutch, or at least intolerant? That’s kind of the point I was trying to illustrate. I see this is becoming the most commented post I have made.
July 24th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
‘/me shrug’ is an emote. To emote is “to portray emotion with action” which is used profusely in MMORPG worlds. Things like /dance, /wave, /bow are emotes that make your character perform a scripted animation such as dancing, waving, or bowing, respectively.
December 20th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
How did the waiter react? Did he look offended? Just because two of your friends were offended it does not mean all Turks think like that. You asked: ‘What does this incident say about Turkish culture?’ To generalize like that would be insensitive. I would ask ‘what does this incident say about your friends?’
I agree with you. I think the tourists were being culturally sensitive. There actually are places where women don’t go in Turkey. Places where men can be men, drink, smoke and play cards. These places are called ‘Kahve’ and ‘Birahane’. Men go to the first to play table games and have coffee or tea, to the second to have beer. They see it as kind of a place to get away. There is no sign on the doors to these establishments saying ‘No Women’ but we women know that we are not wanted there.
So here is an incident you can tell your friends.
I have a friend who recently came to Istanbul to teach with her boyfriend. They felt like having a beer one evening so they went to a bar close to where they live. They had no idea it was a Birahane. The next day my friend told me about her experience and how she was the only female there. How men were staring at her and how she felt uncomfortable. Right away I knew it was a Birahane and I told her that it is where men go to drink.
As a half Turk, I say ‘Thank you’ to the sensitive tourists for asking. It’s like walking into some one’s house for the first time. Do you take your shoes off or not? What is the harm in asking if you are not sure? Isn’t it more offensive to just walk in with your shoes and then to realize you should have taken them off?
Yes Turkey is different then the Arab countries. In the Arab world there is an invisible line that divides men and women. In countries like Saudi Arabia it is very visible. They put signs in food courts at the malls showing where women can sit and where men can sit. I think your Turkish friends are worried of being put in the same pot with the Arabs.
Turkey is a secular country. But there is a big difference between the south-east and the big cities like Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir.
Instead of being so defensive I think we need to take the opportunity to enlighten people about our culture. When you teach something you learn something.
December 21st, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Wow, you are way behind on entries. You make a good point, and I more or less agree with you on everything. Note that I am not trying to give an objective view of Turkish culture. I am doing exactly the opposite. I am giving an interpretation of Turkish culture skewed by my own view point, beliefs and culture.
March 20th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
You probably know what’s a PSP is. Anyway, its 1st model was black, later a white model is also sold. Sony advertised this white model with a ad showing a white girl pushing a black girl. When I 1st saw it, I thought “cool ad”. But later heard, it raised racial arguments and ad was called back.
For me, a Turk, never experienced a black-white issue couldnt see it. But for black people who has a history of abuse… it’s obvious.
It’s same here, Turk’s were pictured being ignorant for so long by west media, so even the slightest thing hurt that old wound.
PS: Dutch tourists did the right thing by asking.
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
But if it had been a kurd and a turk, would it have been more clearly inappropriate to you?
March 22nd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Hmm, difficult question. Especially when I cant picture an example in my mind. To able to tell a different between the Turk and Kurd characters, they would have to use stereotypes. But then it would look like a comedy. But, yeah… I’d probably accuse ad-makers trying to create an unrest.